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The Netherlands 1st at declaring lootboxes as illegal...asking developers for changes

Discussion in 'The Black Hole' started by McCormick, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. Technically you dont own the items in The box. Also.. You cannot buy Boxes in the webshop. Only Boxes+keys, or just keys.
  2. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    But that's the exact same as with items in all other games. I really don't think a judge is going to fall for that technicality. Well, perhaps a Dutch judge will. Those will never stop surprising me with how gullible they are.
  3. Or they pretend to have early dementia, works for Rutte...
  4. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    I watched the entire thing yesterday, and predicted the outcome. The green party (I actually really was impressed with Klavers' persistence in the debate) hadn't requested 45 minutes, I'm not sure the coalition would have been able to get their people together. Fr the majority of the debate, the room was mostly empty. It filled up right after the 45 minute break, because it was pretty obvious there'd be a vote, and by now it's also known it'll be turned into a head-count vote.

    It's seriously worrying how every member of the coalition votes along with the party, even though the Constitution clearly states they should vote as they please.
  5. Wistrel

    Wistrel Kick Ass Elf

    Yeh, actually many years back one of my friends was into WOW so I got her some cards for her birthday (which were real) but had codes for virtual stuff in game. I think they were spells that did fun things like make everyone in a room dance. OK not quite the same as loot boxes but indeed yeh, while I'm aware virtual items do change hands for cash on third party exchanges, I thought it simplest to leave these out of the equation. Especially as often it is notionally prohibited (doesn't stop anyone though!)
  6. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    Belgium is moving, too. Tick, tock.


    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. If we had a vietnam war going on right now...everyone would be "pro lootboxes"...but this is a cold war. ;D
  8. Tass

    Tass Administrator

    It's actually insane that this has been going on for so many years.
  9. Dab


  10. San


    This is what I meant above with "...when polititians pick a target."
  11. Politicians in the Netherlands wont even know entropia exists. They will target the big companies and ps4
  12. Wistrel

    Wistrel Kick Ass Elf

    True, they'll concentrate on stuff that is effecting the majority i.e. the big triple A games that do it.
  13. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    Oh, they'll know...
  14. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    Maybe someone ought to alert the Dutch authorities to MindArk's lootboxes. Reading McC's linked article, it seems they actually evaluate whether or not the lootboxes offered in CS:GO are deemed to be gambling under their rules.

    This of course means that either way, there would be more clarity on whether or not MA's claim that EU/EUs lootboxes cannot be considered gambling holds any truth. If it is in fact gambling, fair enough, MA'd have to stop offering lootboxes to Dutch participants. If it is not gambling, they can use that conclusion to further prove their own claims.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. San


    I am getting a little iffy when I can't figure out which side people are standing on. Are we against governments intruding forever more aspects of our lives, e.g. whether some gamble with the little money they let you keep, or do we hate MA so much that we rejoice at any opportunity to denounce them and glee over it? If authorities want to do a dragnet search, they'll find whom they want to find. The times I talked about suing MA it was in connection with non-fulfillment of a specific contract. But this has a different quality. Citizen denouncers are the pond scum of every history book.
  16. I don't like a government telling me how to play my game entertainment. And I am not anti Mindark, although they are pretty crappy.
  17. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    I actually consider myself a light form of libertarian, and am very much against government intrusion, as well as a strong supporter of holding people accountable for their own actions.

    With that said, that does pose a responsibility onto parties engaging with others to be honest and truthful in their communication, and that's where I feel MA is not. Considering there is a definition of gambling, and MA always saying their game is NOT in fact, gambling (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary), I at least think it'd be nice to get an independent evaluation of the mechanisms.

    However, I'll not be the one setting this stuff in motion. I'm actually merely interested in the outcome. Either way, it'll not have an effect on me whatsoever.
  18. San


    I think where it gets not so cut-and-dried anymore is when thinking about the fact that the company and its customers are actually on the same side in all this. In an environment hostile to various aspects of freedom, can you exist being totally open? I consider it rather unintelligent to not assume a kind of common understanding under the surface. We know that they know it and if they can't count on us knowing it and wanting to play this way, there would not be a meeting at all. There is a risk in that someone getting disgruntled has the potential to blow it all up and destroy it for everyone by setting overzealous authorities on their trail, and I feel it is more useful to direct criticism at them not being too good at managing this particular risk.
  19. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    I have never felt I was on the same side as MindArk. MA goes well out of their way to enforce that thought, too, every time they yap about something new, and then spectacularly fail to deliver, if at all. I feel it every time one of the countless bugs that hinder players are left in the system for years, while anything that costs MA money is instantly resolved. Their complete inability for self-reflection, their unwillingness to learn from their mistakes, their lack of ability and/or willingness to communicate, the way they fuck over their partners time and time again. It's VERY obvious that this is MA against everyone else. So no, I am *not* on the same side as MA. Never have been, never will be. I'm a customer, they're a piss-poor provider of a service. A service that is so overpriced in my book, I barely ever bother depositing anymore.

    And I honestly don't care if there's an understanding with the existing customer base that deep down, this is gambling. What bothers me in this is that newcomers who might get attracted by some press release about EU lack that feeling, and get suckered into the casino. There's a very good reason gambling laws exist, and that's simply because gambling can be addictive to people. Calling it a game does not make it one. Calling it an investment opportunity (lol) does not make it so. EU is gambling. Crafting is gambling. Mining is gambling, with a tiny bit of skill/experience involved. Hunting the same. But deep down, every single time you look a creature, you plain and simple are just pulling a level on a slot machine, the odds of which are secret/undocumented by its provider.

    Lootboxes might or might not be gambling. Yes, you get a bunch of items with a base value back. Yet, the element of chance might make it far more likely for someone to buy more lootboxes than they intended, because maybe their next one will contain a unique ring they might be able to sell for a few thousand dollars. We'll never know, until the odds are provided. And once they are provided, it'll be amazingly clear it's gambling.

    I also don't subscribe to the notion that all it takes is one disgruntled employee or customer. If the game is not gambling, like MA always has claimed, there's no risk in being investigated. After all, it's not gambling, and thus no harm will be done. Alternatively, if it does lead to MA having to shut shop because it's gambling, they've lied to you for all these years.

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