Neverdie circles the wagons

Discussion in 'Next Island' started by aridash, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. aridash

    aridash large throbbing member

    Oh dear. Seems Neverdie doesnt like the slightest critique and is willing to just silence it, while the minions of the Neverdie forum simply man a virtual parapet to defend Neverdie, NI and Rocktopia against the Hordes of Others.

    what am i going on about? well last night ViagraFalls posted in the "Planet Partner Avatars Prohibited" thread on Neverdie forum, a defence of why the community feels aggrieved about the situation. now it reads:

    personally i thought there was a few incorrect points in Viagrafalls piece. there has been a large slice of envy in the anti-Neverdie campaign (which is what it looks like) and the community did seem to take a lead from MS9's revulsion of what had been deployed on NI. no one had seemed too bothered about "conflicts of interest" up until then.

    I point this out for balance because on the otherhand, aside from these points, there were no assumptions made that where not infered from Neverdies own comments. The traditional method of addressing such questions and issues is to explain the situation. It seems Neverdie has gone introverted instead (i assume he is the forum police, since it it his forum). im not sure really what agenda ViagraFalls might have, other than making his comment and opinion known - rather the point of a fourm.

    I write this only to say to any Neverdie forum dwellers passing through, that this make Neverdie look petty. Please dont assume im a Neverdie hater, i am far from that and have often challenged the common view he has done anything wrong. he might not care much off course what i think, but reaching out and explaining actions to the wider EU community will help an awfull lot more than just letting them run away with their own ideas.

    shame its gone now, unless Viagrafalls reposts, which is probably a little pointless. :tiphat:
     
  2. Lykke TheNun

    Lykke TheNun Lootius bless you all!

    Peter (ViagraFalls) got banned right after his post on NEVERDIE.com - with no explanation given (other than the ones in the thread).

    Peter was replying as a defend to a very personal, threatening and hateful post, and the post did not contain strong language, threats, or amything else that goes against the rules as far as he is aware.

    He directly replied to plain open threats on the forum, and added his opinion on the matter. Yes, his post was going against the grain, but he did not believe he went out and made any wide-growing assumptions on anything. What was in there pretty much came from the horse's (NEVERDIE) mouth.

    Peter afterwards contacted ND through mail asking why his post was removed and why he was banned, while his supporters issuing threats are left alone without any further question!

    Peter did keep the content of his post though, and will re-post it here on EP tonight, when he comes home from work.
     
  3. narfi

    narfi Lost

    I believe in free speech, and conveniently for me, I am not on the mod list at nd.com anymore. :P
    I can though understand why the post got deleted/thread locked.

    Regardless of what anyone says, there has been to much emotion and personal attacks from both sides of the fence. No one is concerned with the actual issues anymore, its just nit-picking, insulting, misleading, free for all.

    It is a rather lop sided fight (easily 100-1 by population) and at the deepest root of the problem the legality is that the 100 are right.

    The problem is that those 100 have not acted in an upright manner in their offense (im talking about the mob mentality, not any 1 individual) and have intentionally baited anyone who dissagrees wtih them into emotional responses. I know of at least 2 people banned from pcf and I'm pretty sure a 3rd over this. These were good well meaning people who were baited and mauled by the mob. To be honest I'm not sure how I survived without being banned from all 3 sites. (pcf, nd, and here)

    The mob is responsible for the way all this took place, and though I am a supporter of free speech, I'm glad that I wont have to worry about it at nd.com as well.

    narfi
     
  4. Tass

    Tass Administrator

    Well talking about incorrect points I have to point out those in your post. ;)

    - I don't think "there has been a large slice of envy". If there is/was any slice of any then it is rather small. Personally I find it rather annoying that whenever criticising ND people are called envious. Deathifier, Buzz, Quetesh, Star and actually quite a few others seems to make some money from the game and actually noone seems to be "envious". So we should consider it's not really about envy when it comes to ND.

    - There has been no "anti-Neverdie campaign". It has been pointed out by many people over and over again that it is not about ND but about everyone. ND's and NDS staff's activities for sure have been the catalyst but they have not been the reason for the uproar.

    - The community did not take a lead from MS9. I quite sure that most indivuals who are part of this community thoughtful enough to make up their own opinion.

    - There have been discussions about conflict of interest before, example: Should NEVERDIE be banned?. COI has also been discussed not related to ND, example: the FPC Community Advisor program.


    Back to topic:

    Many people who feel the need to defending ND/RT do not seem not to realize what actually is the threat. Moreover the methods they use when believing to defend are actually a part of the threat. They hurt ND/RT more than they help him/it.

    An example are ND's latest globals. Another is ban of VF and the deletion of his actually quite appropriate and thoughtful post while on the other hand posts like the one in which -let's face it- Menace did call MS9 a bitch are still there in the same thread:

    It would be good for certain people to understand that the rules that force ND to retire his avatar are in place for good reasons and are for the better of any planet, any EU investor, any participant and last but not least ND himself. As long as people including ND do not see reason this will only hurt themselves and ND/RT.
     
  5. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    Narfi,

    What I actually started replying to, though, was the exact same mob mentality shown by at least one person on ND.com, just going the other direction. I decided to offer my version of what happened, partially to defend a friend, partially to offer a different side of the coin (like you stated, the 100 ARE right, as proven by MindArk enforcing the rule, and the version currently offered on the ND forum seems to be an extremely one-sided version of the truth, where ND is made out to be totally wronged, while he really has nobody else than himself to blame).

    I never expected that the post I made would be removed entirely and my account banned over this. I really do not think I broke any rules with it (I just now tried looking for forum rules on NEVERDIE.com, but did not find any anywhere), nor did I insult, threaten or flame. As aridash already pointed out, most of my post was not based on assumption at all, but refered to the OP of the thread in question. I also think that the conflict of interest matter has actually been around since long before the NI launch. As early as the ROCKTRopia launch, people openly questioned this mixing of being a planet partner with having a public account. MindArk just never bothered addressing the issue and plugging the hole, and eventually the problem died down. It happened again this time, and perhaps MindArk realized they could no longer sit down and watch this go by. Sooner or later, the media might pick it up. Or perhaps some of the other planet partners also raised questions that ended up in them finally enforcing their rule.

    To make things clear, I have absolutely no bone to pick with NEVERDIE. I truly do hope that his business will be a succesful one (heck, I helped their admin out with the EntropiaTracker widget and to implement a better anti-spam strategy for both the forums), and that his projects will flourish. I might raise some questions about he way he executes said business, but heck, if I cannot even voice that, what's the point in having a forum to begin with?

    Below is my post typed over. It might slightly differ due to typing it over, but in essence it is the same post. Here's the posts I replied to:

    And my reply to it:

    Please do let me know if you see any assumptions in there. I reread the post, and have not managed to figure out exactly what constitutes "Absolute nonsense", or "too many assumptions", let alone a reason for a ban. If you see it, do feel free to enlighten me. No worries, nobody here will be banned for offering an opposing opinion.
     
  6. Lykke TheNun

    Lykke TheNun Lootius bless you all!

    May I also add, that until now, NEVERDIE has actually been THE only (real) PP (next to FPC but that was first afterwards) but soon a lot of new planets and partners will enter this Universe. If MA should not set standards straight now and make sure the written agreements for PP is been followed by them all, the PP will alway feel NEVERDIE (and crew) was favorised, and that in itself would not be good for any of the parties; NEVERDIE, other planet partners, not to forget MindArk.

    Even though I find it sad to see 'NEVERDIE' leave, he didn't really leave. He can arise as a professionel and official NEVERDIE figure both in game and on forums, and in real life he is still the legend; Jon NEVERDIE Jacobs. His avatar is there - but he doesn'ts have a direct access to abusing the knowledge he naturally has as a planet developer (NEVERDIE studios) - and the same goes for his crew, who are players and also real friends of ND. Not saying he did, just saying there can always be assumptions around in the community if he does, if it's possible.

    I the long run I can only see it as being a good thing for NEVERDIE studios and ROCKtropia tbh. NEVERDIE is dead, long live NEVERDIE!
     
  7. RAZER

    RAZER Custom title ... uh ...

    Well yet another reason not to go to RT or NI. Haven't been online for a few days now and must say I kinda like it that way.
    I strongly get the feeling I will be back when either Cyrene or Arkadia come online.
     
  8. Nobatti

    Nobatti Guest

    Dont forget that there has been discussion, but this is still as yet unresolved as is evidenced by the events of new years eve. Mindark is at fault here for they have it within their power to apply restrictions on an avatar and as far as we know they have not done so. Were we now in a position where had actions been taken it would be over. Unfortunately we are in an interim period where it has been acknowledged but not completed and because of that the discussion is going to rage on and elevate every time another event happens that shouldn't have. That in turn continues to piss folks (customers) off and that is not good business in my book.
     
  9. WOW,

    I think that your post is right on the spot and supports MindArk's decision. If a new player was to join and see ND global on his own planet how long do you think that new player would stay around? The effect that would have on EU would be destructive not only to MA but to the entire community as well. Just because ND did do so much promoting of EU dose not make it right and he can still promote EU as a official avatar, as he did before he was a planet partner. As for MS9 starting the war path on ND that is so far out their it is ridicules, ND has always had issues with self promoting to the max and many people have taken issue with that. As for "D" he is a land owner NOT a planet partner so he dose not have the same contract to sign and follow as a planet partner.
    I have always felt that being a planet partner or working for one and being a player as well was wrong. I have no ax to grind and I am not on either side I am simply telling you what I know to be true. My wife was at one time was a member of the Rock Stars, a soc lead by Force who is a employee of ND studios. I can tell you for a fact that info relating to ROCKtropia was talked about on their Team Speak long before anyone else knew it. I knew at that time their was going to be many issues allowing them to be players and employees.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Tass

    Tass Administrator

    There's help:

    [​IMG]

    Forboding made me take a screenshot.

    I would say deleting such a post and banning the poster is "absolute nonsense" and implying a "hidden agenda".

    Good to have an independent forum, once again.
     
  11. narfi

    narfi Lost

    The one thing that jumped out at me reading through your post just now is,

    This is very untrue in regards to the coi debate threads.

    There were personal attacks against nd in those threads which had nothing to do with coi.
    Maybe they were legitimate issues as well, I dont know, but they had nothing to do with coi.

    Also as much as i respect her, ms9 was in the front of the mob with her share of non coi assaults. (towards the end I saw here trying to slow it down some, but was too little to late, a mob is unstoppable)

    I warned about this before it started, and right or wrong there is going to be heat from starting a mob like that.

    I really dont want to get into another vicious cycle of he said/she said your wrong on that point you !#%^!@#^ type thing again, too much of that already happened :/

    but thats the parts that stood out in your post to me just reading over it quickly,

    narfi
     
  12. aridash

    aridash large throbbing member

    just calling it as i see it. there has been a lot of glee from some quarters and i dont care what individuals say, some of the objection is envy based. he has an oppurtunity to do something because he's taken risks and worked hard on CND, and taken new risks with a development studio, some think he's somehow been gifted somthing they deserve. not necessarily at ND directly (though for a few it was), but envy at the fact any player was in such a position. if you cant see that in some peoples postings, i cant help you. You are right though that i shouldnt highlight MS9, i give her to much credit, just her turgid postings gnaw in the mind. but i dont recall any serious discussion ( a few murmurs) about conflicts of interest when he had Rocktopia, it all kicked off when NI was released and wasnt what people expected. People just couldn't accept it was some sort of payment, in agreement with the planets and MA no doubt, but was all some underhanded cheat. their expectations weren't met and Neverdie was to blame, not NI.

    @ narfi, i only know off the top of my head one banned person from Camp Neverdie, who called out the mods on PCF with "im going to promote Next Island until you ban me". what did they expect? theres been a couple of other posters who seem to be single issue agitators, i can see they might have pushed the boundries (condsidering PCF is technically for Calypso only). NI will never grow as a community or retain many new players if they maintain such a them and us mentality. Neverdie has the power and authority to lead his nascent community, to show an even handed approch to the situation, to calm the troubled waters. this is currently not on show.
     
  13. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    Thanks narfi :) I agree that there might have been envy. However, I do not think that MS9 is guilty of that. Yet, her comments are tossed on the same pile. So in that case, I stand corrected.

    As for the unrealted stuff that came up against ND, I assumu you are referring to the matter where IslandGirl was brought up at some point. I agree that it does not have anything to do with the conflict of interest at all. It does, however, show that despite his promise to MindArk, Jon chose to ignore that request/rule by them as well. In itself, perhaps an understandable action. However, when paired with the new discussion, it might be used to strengthen the argument that I made in my post there about opening the discussion towards other rules, and certainly makes it a lot more difficult for him to claim it's merely ignorance of the rules. In the case of the IslandGirl avatar, he had received a statement from MA. In the case of the contract, unless he signed the contract without reading it, he had received notice of the rules.

    Perhaps the only change I should have made to the post was by substituting "willingly" by "willingly or unwillingly".
     
  14. safara

    safara Pamwe Chete

    That ND forum keeps proving itself to be something run and over-run by hormonal teenagers.

    I have no Beef with ND and would love to see RT doing well, but I fear they need to grow up a bit first.

    I do have a Beef about people being ordered by MA to stop doing something, and then completely ignoring this and continuing to do the same thing. And getting away with it.

    Apart from Marketing, there seems to to be an incredible lack of professionalism going on at NDS.
     
  15. What do you mean apart from? Marketing is more then creating a hype and being in the news a few times.

    Only thing professional i see, is the graphical artists that made the planets.
     
  16. safara

    safara Pamwe Chete

    OK yeah, was alluding to the ability to get noticed in internet articles. Clutching at straws hehe :)
     
  17. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    I actually really dig the NI music. The one that actually does remind you of tropical islands :) And every now and then, there's a nice jazz song on the line in the ND part of NI as well.
     
  18. Thorn

    Thorn Proud CND Baby

    That`s truly sad about getting banned and the post removed. I can see only one reason for that. They fear the truth. We know why there was impropriety. We know it needed to be addressed for the benefit of EU and every participant and planet partner now and in the future. And I can say with relative certainty that MS9 stepped up because she is not afraid to speak her thoughts and can do so in a very mature, calm and articulate manner. After all it`s what she has done up until very recently. As a reporter and sometimes voice for a part of the community. And it often got her targeted by those I think that just can`t understand some concepts, see the big picture or just want to protect their agendas.

    As I just told a friend earlier today "Lack of understanding is often expressed as anger, hate and fear, ignorance is an unwillingness to attempt to understand".

    Thank Lootius for an independent forum!
     
  19. I've always had a deep respect for people willing to go against the hivemind.
    I had a great deal of respect for you prior to this, but this adds to it even more.

    I know that in discussions and debates people tend to put so much of their emotional energy into it, like winning an argument is really REALLY important, and it seeme like It's kind of what happened here.
    Everyone should be able to take a step back and look at things in an objective point of view, by letting NEVERDIE continue on as usual would definately put him a couple of steps before other players, if he chooses to use this to his advantage is another discussion though.
    Secondly, by letting him continue as usual would also mean he would continue to break the agreement he signed.. This part should really ring some bells.


    Now whatever you feel about ND, these facts still stand as correct, breaking an agreement is wrong as well as having "insider information." I don't know the name of it but is it called insider trading when you make stock-moves because you have achieved insider info? Anyway, this is strictly illegal.. While the ingame world works very differently, me myself and I still considder it to be pretty much the same thing.
     
  20. What he said. And it actually seems to get worse which almost seems impossible. lol
     
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