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more damn cheaters using multiple avatars or alternatively one avatar with multiple users...

Discussion in 'The Black Hole' started by mastermesh, Dec 3, 2012.

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  1. Many games i play on steam allow to make 2 to 4 avatars. APB:R and Planetside 2 maybe blacklight retributution and can get more slots by buying them.

    I don't see a problem with making a 2nd avatar in EU aslong as you follow the rules and that you put money in to skill up so MA are still making money.
    I would like in EU a male and a female avatar.

    The way it was setup before with the new arivals area you could get 1.20 ped per avatar created and it was open to abuse
    untill they changed and revamped the area.

    In my lifetime ive made over 1,000 emails.
     
  2. Hi,

    IMHO this is a major bullshit.
    Girtsn hit it perfectly, there. So I replied:
    Any ways of trying this will inevitably fail, will only slightly hinder potential evildoers, but will will have a high probability to seriously harm honorable participants.

    A rule that cannot be enforced isn't a rule, it's a joke. And a sign of lacking professionalism.

    Instead of trying to set up, enforce and sanction such useless rules the development time would be better spent to fight the repercussions of the fact that both multi-avatars as well as multi-players exist, have ever existed and will ever exist. Don't battle the windmill vanes if you don't like their movement, block the windmills axle!

    This discussion here should better be:
    "What are the harms caused by multi-avatar or multi-player actions, and what can be done to reduce it?", IMHO.

    For me, the most prominent harm would be the market manipulation. Let's have a look at RL (tm) regarding this:
    We have (more or less) strong public authorities prosecuting this, we have laws, attorneys, judges, jails. But there's still market manipulation. But ways less than we'd have wouldn't we have these measures.

    So what could be done? We could forbid Soc members bidding to another Soc members auction. We could pose a limit of how often an avatar may bid to another avatars auction. We might restrict the value a bid can be raised.
    We could create quite some well defined little steps that would make it harder - not more. We could never completely stop it, but maybe we'd be able to limit it in a way that is tolerable. Just like in RL (tm).


    And, by the love of Lootius, will you ppl never learn it? IPs and MACs are not a way to accomplish anything!

    No problem at all for any evildoer to log in with different IP's/ MACs from a single computer. No problem at all to change them at will. For people that want to grab a little more PED using different IPs it's no problem to do the tiny investment into multiple ISPs, Proxies, VPNs etc. Or to change the MAC for every login, and for every VirtualMachine. No way to stop them.

    But you'll hurt anybody that is playing behind a router: families, participants playing from IN-cafes, dormitories, hotels, public WLANs, hospitals or similar, participants playing from countries where they MUST use VPN/ Proxie to circumvent the governments censorship, a lot of perfectly legit participants!
    And the people that have an ISP that gives out new IPs with every router reboot, and even during the "enforced disconnection once a day". And this is close to all Western Europe.
    And the people that are playing from different places - well, isn't there an announcement that we'll be able to log in from our SmartFones already? Oh, your iFone hasn't the same IP as your machine at home? No, you're not allowed to create an auction, you must be a dreaded misfit!

    Relying on IPs and/ or MACs for "fraud protection" doesn't stop one determined evildoer, but heavily harms a serious number of perfectly legit players. Learn it plz, finally! This is the internez of 2012!

    Have fun!
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  3. In EU you dont need a new ip or mac i even had a static ip one that never changes.

    Could make a a few thousand of accounts from the machine

    The only flag that might pop up is if one plays with 2 computers on the same net/info
     
  4. Hi,

    Yep, and this is what would hit me, for instance - my wife and I play from behind the same NAT router - so same IP, maybe even same MUC.

    (You might have replied to a post-in-the-making. It might have not been ready at the time of replying. Took some time, tried something new ...)

    Besides, all this talk of IP and such in the linked thread makes me grin & cry at the same time. Obviously these ppl have no plan at all, nor any deeper knowledge of the network.
    IPv6 is at the doors, and not without any thoughts there's quite some mechanics in place to hide the unique identification of the end user. Would be a wet dream for any dictator to have such - one wrong post anywhere, compete IP ban, never get heard again, even IN block maybe? Digital gag ...

    Such shall not happen. And because it's most desirable that people cannot be reduced to a sheer IP number that can be blocked easily any means to use this in a game is doomed. For what reason ever.

    We cannot set up communication possibilities for human rights organizations, for suppressed humans living in dictatorships, and at the same time trying to use the mechanics we actively fight for control. We'd work against ourselves.

    So any try to control the fact of 1 person having more accounts, or more persons playing 1 avatar is in vain, doomed, lost time. There is no way to do it. Not but going this deep into the participants privacy that nobody in a clear state of mind would touch this ever, anymore.

    It's hard enough already. Would I ever think of withdrawing, I cannot use my bank accounts. I'm self employed and tax office would roast me slowly, on low fire. Gaming income? OMG - they'd cancel any write-off from my server park, my ISP costs, my IT related expenses. Because they'd assume I'd not only use my 1 private machine, wouldn't it be much more obvious to use the phat graphics workstation, or the powerful servers? They don't know, sure, but they'd assume. And it would be me to go to court, with an insanely high risk to burn insane money, and then loose anyways, because the judge might be an digital analphabetic as well.

    Already in the very moment I cannot be sure that a withdrawal would ever work. I have my wifes bank account accredited. But, for sure, no way to prove that it's mine. Maybe I should really try once - I never ever withdrew yet.

    This is hot iron. No way to really stop potential evildoers, but a high potential to hurt honest EU participants. And a community that happily jumps any witch-hunt-train, without further intelligence. No fun, I think.

    Rules that cannot be enforced should be dropped, instead there should be worked on to stop the negative consequences. This at least might have a chance to work.

    Have fun, nevertheless!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Studying examples of ways people have used these can help us start to understand possibly harms that it could cause I think. Part of the reason I've started keeping track of this sort of stuff at http://entropiatrash.wordpress.com/category/conspiracy-2/multiple-avatars/

    http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/f...loot-returns&p=2983432&viewfull=1#post2983432 - used two avatars, one at work and one at home. The work was used " investigating Entropia for filtering purposes - Illegal casino or not" whatever that means... I guess it was to investigate the gambling aspects of EU and how it might be used in various illegal ways or something? Possible harms: avatars in two places at once, corruption on the job irl, governments getting involved in areas that they should not be, corporations in direct competition with individual avatars - i.e. unfair market manipulation by those with essentially unlimited resources, etc.

    Along a similar line, is it fair for planet partners to pay others in the community to do what they cannot? Force was doing that with Daisy in Rockstars if I read the Entropiatimes article correctly. http://www.entropiaplanets.com/w/images/6/63/EntropiaTimes_December_2010.pdf - page 12 last paragraph on the right column discusses the 'sponsorship'

    Kim still hasn't reopened the thread at http://www.entropiaforum.com/forum/2570916-post1.html asking about Planet Partners and their ability to participate. http://entropiatrash.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/the-quote-from-rafael/ - Rafael indicated that his company, which is currently in the process of making a planet has individuals that work their that have personal avatars to keep eyes on other planets way of doing things, etc. Planet Partners create loot tables. Insider info is definitely a potential harm as indicated by the whole DA Manager thing, etc. Same sort of thing goes with the ms9 issue in how she was a planet partner or worked for one and was getting information from press releases an hour before the rest of the world. Even though that info probably wasn't used for insider trading, etc. potential is definitely there, and the fact that Mindark let it happen means they are probably willy nilly giving out info like that ahead of time to certain individuals, giving them unfair advantages.

    Devine Vixen Incarnate recently logged in to sell the mall shop (it appeared on in game auction, etc.). That's a second alt that 711, i.e. Neomaven owns based on what I've read about it. Having multiple avatars hold estates and other items like that keeps them out of active users hands, which creates artificial inflation due to supply/demand issues.

    Calypto used to make a bunch of alt avatars for the sole purpose of harassing others in game if I understand the situation correctly based on what I've read about it. That sort of activity is definitely a harm.

    Hardwrath, who used to be the leader of the NBK (but no longer is in it if I understand the situation properly), used multiple avatars to create the various NBK societies and watch over all of them as the founder of all of them, kicking people out on a whim at any time if he felt like it. The NBK has become what is probably one of the, if not the biggest group in game. That sort abuse of tou and eula is definitely a harm. What's sad about it though is that even though I brought this out in to the public, Mindark continues to let at least two of the avatars that were involved continue to live even today, even though HW admitted in a public forum that the second avatar was one that he created as an alt and handed the gold card to someone else for it when he temporarily left the game for a while. Now, both of those are still active avatars who still log in from time to time... see any harm potential here? Mindark doesn't since they let it go on and on and on even though they've had multiple support tickets about it.

    Magyar at one point in time was sharing his avatar, or at least putting out feelers to the community for those that might be interested in doing that http://entropiatrash.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/magyar-is-sharing-his-account-with-others/ Synergen used to have (might still have?) a shared avatar account. Use of shared accounts is a potential harm because using other people's money can definitely corrupt some, and it's also unfair for those type of avatars to be direct competition with individuals with only one person behind one avatar. The 'fund' issue can be seen by how various fund leaders left the game with other people's money on their pedcard, etc. Patriots did that. Hardwath did that. R&R fund did that on a much major scale. There's other examples out there. Since 'all trades are final' any avatar that is used for a 'fund' like that can keep whatever they got scammed out of anyone else, no matter what false promises of future paybacks there is that were made... That's definitely a harm.

    Multiple avatars on multiple planets that are there to bypass space is definitely something that seems to be happening even though I've not seen anyone admit to it yet publicly.

    Identity theft is a harm. There's been at least a few n00bs over the years who created avatars very similar to uber names for the sole purpose of name recognition type scams. That's a harm that's somewhat related even if it's not really the issue at question in this thread.

    There's a bunch of older examples over at http://entropiatrash.wordpress.com/...-avatar-or-alt-avatar-issues-and-discussions/

    One avatar per household would probably not be a bad idea, but you are right, people can change their IP easily, so one avatar per IP is probably not going to get the problem fixed. MA needs to do much more investigation, and should probably actually create an investigation unit that tracks questionable actions, which they probably could do before they delete logs. However, they delete older logs, which is a big mistake in my opinion. They should fix that problem too by archiving older logs... They should require something like driver's license, etc. for every gold card they give out or sell. They should track transactions to see how manipulations to the market could be originating from similar IP addresses, etc. Fixing it so that manipulations to market can't be done in same society would not stop anything since people will just change societies or figure out the rules and abuse them... There's much that could be done, but so far Mindark doesn't give a damn. You can hand them all the proof and examples you want of where manipulations are happening and name the avatars involved with logs, etc. and they won't raise a finger other than the middle one at you for reporting it, which is sad.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  6. Tass

    Tass Administrator

    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Hi,

    Kidding? I shall be punished as soon as I want to play together with my wife? And what about the children? They can't log in when on visit, to receive their virtual XMas gift? We all need to live divided, in different places and with different ISP's, due to some IMHO ridiculous player paranoia, right? Kidding?

    MA could make this game quite secure, requiring all & any personal data, hard-copies of official documents, a fingerprint at any log in, whatever. And still go down the drain with it.
    Because it's ways more than many ppl are ready to share. It's still a video game, not more.

    And putting up security measures like in a high-security weapon factory will not help to the popularity of the game.


    MA should completely abandon these restrictions after creating working measures against the abuse by them, IMHO.
    They cannot prohibit them, any measures taken will only slightly anger the evildoers, but seriously hurt perfectly legit participants. More harm done but benefit.

    You (that doesn't mean you alone, MasterMesh) are asking for measures that easily might be able to shut down EU. It already has crazy security measures - I don't know any other game that might ask me for a copy of my drivers license or any other official doc. This alone will repel a lot of people. And will not help much once EU will be accused of money laundering, or of providing a game of chance, what are ways more important accusations but "market manipulation in a video game".

    To determine what to fight first, and with what measures, is crucial.

    A few restrictions on auctioning, as I mentioned above, would maybe severely hurt the dreaded resellers and market manipulators. Feel free to add suggestions!

    Any other fight against using more-then 1 avatar, or more players playing 1 avatar are doomed, because there's no way to prove it. Drop it! Find a way to prohibit potential benefits of doing so instead!

    Is it this hard to understand?

    Cya!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Nor Alien

    Nor Alien Wisker Fish

  9. ArieJVW

    ArieJVW OLA #59

    I am one of then guys, if you are not allowed but can, don't. I have invested a bit of money in this game for something as little as a double Ava for MA to have an excuse if I withdraw.

    My 2c

    Sorry about the neco I wanted to get a bit more action happening
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. I am impressed with both sides of this argument, however I think if MA removed safe guards of multi avatars playing by one individual (dubious by nature ones),there would be rampant mayhem and scams constantly attacking any "legitimate" new players and would ruin game completely in my opinion. This thread and information in it is very "eye opening," and hats off to Entropia Planets! This little diddy was very informative: http://www.entropiaplanets.com/wiki/Jason_Peterson
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2015
  11. bump... forgot about the portal being there... may need to put some info out there someday or have someone else do it...

    Lots of potential examples to add over there from over here if anyone's wanting a hobby, lol. ;)
     
  12. Wistrel

    Wistrel Kick Ass Elf

    Are you the Rose who used to hang out with my soc mate DD?
     
  13. DD :D
     

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