How loot works

Discussion in 'Entropia News' started by GeorgeSkywalker, Feb 11, 2011.

  1. GeorgeSkywalker

    GeorgeSkywalker Explorer


    How loot works

    Disclaimer: These theories may be 100% wrong

    Personal Loot Card
    Just like the PED card, everyone has an invisible loot card. The system stores your ongoing record of losses/profits on this invisible loot card. It is essentially your loot pool. You fill it up and sometime in the future when certain conditions are right you loot what you put in.

    Auction System Loot Pool

    The auction system is central to generating funds which are used to pay the sweating, fruit and dung, and free oil systems. Funds from the auction system are also used to fund loot for players. Hence this can explain how a one-day noob can loot a 100k plus uber. The auction loot pool is akin to a charitable system.

    Is this game gambling?
    As you can see under this theory there really is no gamble, you get what you put in. Furthermore, it may be possible to gain funds from the auction system loot pool. So there really is no chance of loosing over the long run. Any gambling body that looks at MindArk will therefore find the game as not gambling.

    Does this game exploit people of their peds?
    Certainly not. As you can see, MindArk is in fact quite a generous company who, as they said all along, make money from a portion of decay. They even place funds from the auction system into the loot pool. Many other companies would not have been so generous.

    Implications of this theory on team hunting
    How we share loot in teams should be revised since the system is likely to return each player the TT from their personal loot card. Sharing that TT value would be unethical. Sharing the markup of items however should be a team decision.

    Why calls on lowering the value of ATH's/ubers can be counter productive
    Some people argue that the value of ATH's/ubers should be lowered. This can be very counter productive under this theory because some people may have a huge value stored on their personal loot card. If ATH's/ubers are lowered this would make it difficult for them to recoup their losses.

    When do ubers/ATH's drop?
    This theory does not cover when or how someone gets an uber. That is a separate issue and handled by a separate theory.

    This theory may explain why some ecohunters may not be getting a large uber. Since they never loose enough peds to build up their personal loot card they never gain a big uber. They may however be able to gain an uber from the auction system loot pool.

    What evidence is there for this theory?
    This is based on statements by Marco and MindArk. As well as general forum knowledge. There is no concrete proof this theory is correct, and as stated earlier, this theory may be 100% incorrect.

    Some possibilities for further research

    • Using data from Entropia Tracker could be used to strengthen this theory. For example, by calculating total loot per day against total spendings per day per avatar (spendings would have to be approximated - e.g., 1 global equals twice the amount spent).
    • Analyzing extreme cases. For example, the avatar that gained multiple ubers within a few months via bug exploit could give us ideas on how the personal loot card and auction system loot pool interact. It may be possible by using this exploit the avatar looted everything from his personal loot card and more via the auction loot pool. The system may therefore have placed his personal loot card value into a negative figure which could account for bad returns for that avatar.
    • The ecohunters area could do with further research. Some ecohunters may record all their activities and hence it may be possible to discern how the personal loot card and auction loot pool interact with each other. This would have to be a long-term project, and ideally, records should stem from day one.
    • Estimating a rudimentary figure for how the auction system generates via some auction tracker sites. This figure in turn with Entropia Tracker data could be used for further analysis.
    Personal thoughts
    Just as each "run" yields globals, likewise our long-term game play can be seen as the "run" on a bigger scale. Our Entropian life will be a "run" that will feature moments where we are so overjoyed by an uber loot and so depressed when the loot isn't there. It's remarkable how successful MindArk has been in disguising how the system works. Despite all the player insults thrown at MindArk they've stuck to their job. So perhaps we owe them an apology. Perhaps they were right when they said, "Tired of killing monsters and not getting paid?" Perhaps their marketing was spot on but our understanding is what was flawed...
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  2. Very good post, I think it is very likely that the system is close to what you describe.

    I have one comment regarding lowering the Hof sizes: Yes, it might take longer for some players to recoup their losses. But on the other hand, it will address the game's biggest problem right now which is the high cost to skill up and advance. For a new player that lost all the 200 ped he deposited after one week of playing it doesn't matter that the system evens out in the long run, he has already quit the game. Also for the level 15 player who now wants to start killing mobs bigger than snables, the long periods of low returns that drain all his deposited peds too quickly frustrate him and force to go back to lower mobs or simply quit. The current system is good for players with decent initial budgets and/or lots of time and patience, but I think we lose many potential depositing players like that (I know I have seen friends leaving over the years because of the cost to play).
  3. Very nice thread, lightened up a few things i didn't think about.
    And i LOVE that picture!! made me crack up! LOL
  4. yeah lovely picture and a theory which is prolly quite close to reality. So good post! ;)
  5. interesting...for me globals came usually within a max of 2 days after I deposited....if I sell loot a month after i deposit and go hunting I'll lose almost everything. I don't really play eco(well not at all) but I only go hunting/mining sporadically, don't go evvery day for 2 weeks, maybe once every few days(sometimes with month long brakes)...from what I can tell the more you hunt, the more you spend the more you can global/hof (kinda logical - more mobs killed, more chances to hof)
  6. khaos

    khaos DnB'addict

    I think it is a system with random elements and controllable elements.
    For example; your lvl0 chance to get a global is 0.05%, and your lvl10 chance is 0.1%. But the %'s come from random number draw.
    Or where doing a specific action gives you something like a slot machine.
    This way it is controllable by the avatar, but still random enough for us not to find out.

    Also, they removed PED in loot some years ago, because this violated gambling rules - I believe.
    Maybe it is still a completely random system, but because no money is handed out it isn't violating gambling laws.

  7. So.. explain to me why in the last 5 months ive lost some 15K PEDs in hunting..... If thats 15K PEDs in decay only.. MA owes me about 1982K skills...
  8. Lykke TheNun

    Lykke TheNun Lootius bless you all!

    I suggest you ask MindArk about that ;) This is a loot theorie and it's already stated it might be wrong.

    You're welcome to post your own theory though.
  9. GeorgeSkywalker

    GeorgeSkywalker Explorer

    Good question about new player. I think the system is fairly well balanced to be honest and shouldn't be changed to appease to new players who haven't done their research. This game requires a lot of patience and the person you describe doesn't seem to me to have what it takes. Under this theory even a "mad" player who doesn't know what he's doing hasn't really lost everything they have just stored their peds onto their personal loot card for future looting faster than most. So either way if you play "correctly" or "incorrectly" eventually if you have the patience you'll regain it back apart from some of the decay.

    If as you say you've "lost" 15k peds in hunting. Under this theory you really haven't lost much the majority of it would have gone to your personal loot card and some of the decay would have gone to Mindark. In hunting if you record your returns from each hunt you'll be able to tell how much is decay and how much that may have gone to your personal loot card.

    Instead of the word lost it may be better to use the word invested as you'll eventually recover your investment.

    I think you know all this so I may have misunderstood your question. If you meant to dispute the generosity part well by that I meant the auction system loot pool is generous of them to give that to players. Other companies may not have been generous to give the funds from the auction system to players, to my mind a company like Microsoft would have kept most of the auction system funds for themselves as their profit.
  10. very nice post ,
    but i keep seeing it like a fruit machine.

    a fruit machine in holland for instance is set to give out 85% of what is put in.
    how it's managed and how the time counter is set in those machines i will not tell :P
  11. Lykke TheNun

    Lykke TheNun Lootius bless you all!

    fruit mashines? You mean as in slot mashines or a juicer??

    but please tell :) ... I'm open for a pm :D
  12. NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    In holland, slot machines are known as "fruit automaten" (fruit automats), due to them spinning various kinds of fruits.
  13. aridash

    aridash large throbbing member

    this is one of those "but it doesn't follow" moments. delaying the payback to some undetermined or uncertain future time is still gambling. will i play long enough to see the big pay back? fruit machines, if not blatantly rigged, will pay out their stated amount in a small finite time, still gambling. over the long run we the whole player base will always lose, auction pool cannot make money appear.

    though i do like the idea of the auction fees going into a seperate bonus prize pool. we know they did this with the advertising revenue (though not the exact distribution).

    sometimes i look at the idea of personal track loot and i like it. some versions, lets call it the strong accounting school, are too complex imo to work in a live environment with thousands of players. on the other hand a light tracking school where "losses" trickle into a pool seems quite practical.

    However, team hunting spoils the whole concept. i dont see how the two can work. are you stealing from each others loot pool? take someone on a hunt whos been losing badly for weeks and get a 5k tt Hof, was they due to them? for me team hunting and shared loot blows a great big hole in personal loot theory. is it an independent pool, in which case is it an advantage/disadvantage to team?

    easily solved, you'd simply have a period of increased smaller hofs/ath as individual players pool is rebalanced. ie, increase Hof frequency variable and lower hof amount/multiple variable
  14. TotalTwist

    TotalTwist News Reporter

    I knew it!!

    All this time and years of wondering through all the games I played.... How did animals give items and money to people?? The picture is the answer!
    We shoot tem for their money bags:wise:

    In all sincerity I always wondered about a personal history for every account.
  15. Hmmm I have to disagree with the theory that you get what you put in. I have not even been close to a ratio of breaking even. Heck I haven't had a global/HoF bigger then 500 PED in five years. I know you can say the big ones don't matter--but even in the regular loot I have yet to loot something that isn't a common item.

    I also have to liken the loot system to some sort of gamble, since you always take a gamble when you hunt. Only difference is that you can control some variables.

    Lastly MA is a business and businesses survive for one purpose only--to make money.
  16. TotalTwist

    TotalTwist News Reporter

    But does it need to be a rare item? Doesn't it just need to be a value back?
  17. Savya

    Savya 89 -94

    LMAO, Love it!!!!!!

    Now if the PED tracking theory is true, every global/hof I have ever gotten is tallied and is going to be eventually squeezed out of me along with my very life essence... that seems pretty grim.

    Maybe the system works more like one of those coin push machines, where the quarters keep stacking and pushing closer and closer to the edge. Then someone comes along a drops in a quarter, and gets some loot, e.g., a quarter falls off here, or a few quarters there, and maybe even a bigger stack of quarters.... This would explain the Uber Noobers. If your theory is true of ped tracking, if you get one uber noober, you are screwed from here to eternity.

    The question is, do we keep playing on the same push machine no matter where you go? Or, can others win your push, so you lose out. I would think that is the latter, as this is how it appears to operate with mining. If an Avatar mines an area before you come running along 20 minutes later, your loot will be much less.... unless, they contributed to the coin push, and you come along after them, and HoF.

    My experience is like this.... recall visiting Las Vegas, Nevada USA.... or a casino anywhere. Go to one of those linked "Fruit Machines" that has the large LED display with how much the accumulated loot is in there... you keep putting in dimes/quarters/dollars, and the Jackpot keeps getting bigger and bigger. You keep loosing and loosing with little jackpots here, or a small global there; always in hopes of a bigger jackpot or winning the pooled pot.

    I do a lot of crafting, and it kinda behaves more like a combination of roulette + 5 card stud.

    The ultimate question: How do I get the odds in my favor? Last summer, I was breaking even or maybe 10% loss in crafting.
    After 3 months off because of medical issues (August 2010 - Dec 2010), came back during MM, and loss is closer to 70-90%.
    Maybe, some big ATH or HoFs came about, and now, all my peds are going to the edge, waiting for a new push winner.

    I believe that your skills improve how accurately you drop your quarter in.
    Now with such a large universe, keeping track of everyones personal ped card would be nearly impossible (well, with the lag we have been getting lately). I would tend to lean towards the idea that when you hit a loot return, a number of items are factored in, including your skill set (this would be much easier to track, i.e, all your skills are tallied up to a single number. This would explain why you are grinding on your BP with a QR of 100 with tons of failures, near success, some successes or even a global here or there while the avatar next to you is spamming globals left and right with the same blueprint.

    Do you remember the old, original videos where all of the mobs had numbers over their heads? Of course, so much has changed since then, but the popular belief was that every generated mob is given a predestined loot value. Now, if you take a number of other factors related to your Avatar's skills, weapon, non-chipable skills, and maybe armor to produce a single multiplier modifier... This number is multiplies with the returned loot to produce a modified loot return. This is more in line with what I have experienced personally. Now, if we were to go hunting in a field, and there were 1200 mobs with zeroes above there head, we would think twice about going in. Now, if there was a big number floating above them, 1.2mil ped jackpot, them "Hell Ya", all in!!!!


  18. No--but when all I loot are items with a MU of ~%120. Doesn't really inspire me much.
  19. narfi

    narfi Lost

    On the other hand if all I looted were items with a mu of ~120% I would hunt ALOT more than I already do. :P
  20. A bold post regarding how loot works, this is a valid THEORY. I doubt that the personal loot card is proved by anyone. IMO this shouldn't be on the first page since it will be read by newcommers and be treated like it's facts presented here. I think you should ad a big disclamer on this post.
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